Topic: What to use in winds 25 to 35 knots?

[hargadoo]

Hello, me again -- the fellow who didn't know how to reef and has an Aloha 27. I once asked about the reef points and so far that proved useful today (Thanks to you dude, you probably saved my life and two other people's).
Today was 25-35  knot winds at edge of Howe sound before strait of georgia. I did the proper thing before leaving port by reefing the mainsail at reefpoint 2.

Now my problem happened when I unfurled the genoa. It is 180% and that thing nearly tipped the boat over. Sure we went real fast (6+ knots all the way out from Howe sound to Strait of Georgia) but it was hard to maneuver as the seas were 5to 15feet and the 180% genny just kept getting us tossed about by the wind. So my question now is about foresails.

What % genoa should I use for wind that is at:

15 knots? (I assume the 180% genny is good for up to 15 knots).
above 20 knots?
above 25 knots?
above 30 knots?
I have a storm gib(not sure about the sail area of the storm gib), a 150% genny and a 110%genny what windspeed should I have those up?

Also, to anyone who's sailed their Aloha 27s in rough seas: How well does your boat handle in 5 to 15ft seas? In winds 25-35knots, should I just stay in port? What sails do you use when winds are 25-35knots? Also, what is the boat's wind-speed threshold of wind hitting it broadside with both sails meeting the wind broadside as well before it tips over?


Oh yeah, we wussed out as soon as we saw a 35footer also wuss out before they even unfurled their sails (I think they saw us having trouble tacking so they themselves turned back).

[musrum]

First point, knowing when to 'wuss out;, is a _very_ good thing.  25-35 knots
is adventurous in a 27 foot boat.

When talking about boat handing in seas, it is not the height that is critical,
it is the combination of height and period.  15 foot swell with a period of 25
seconds is no big deal.  15 foot seas with a period of 8 seconds...well that's
a rather different picture. I haven't sailed an A27, and my Cal 27 sailing
has been only on Long Island sound.  I haven't had it out in anything more
than 25-30, 7-8 foot seas with a period of about 6 seconds.  With properly
reefed sails, that was no problem, just very wet.

A 180 genoa is a light air/off wind sail.  Of course, just how much wind you
can use it in depends on a few things.  What is the apparent wind angle?
 A 180 can fly in higher winds as the wind moves aft.  Second, what is the
limiting angle of heel for the A27.  Boats have some angle of heel beyond
which boat speed is reduced, sometimes dramatically.  The Cal 27, for
instance, shouldn't be sailed beyond 15 degrees - it's a boat that sails best
on it's feet. Another factor is just your (or your guests) comfort level.

If you have roller furling, trying out your different headsails in various winds
is going to be a lot easier if you have competent friends along.  One thing
you didn't mention is the luff length of the sails you have.  Are they all full
length luffs? Or is the 110 shorter?

Anyway, at 25-35 knots, if the wind is much forward of the beam, or you are
going to be varying your point of sail, the storm jib is a good idea, until you
gain experience with the boat and sails.  Certainly, unless you are off the
wind, the 110 would be plenty.  I was just out in 22 gusting to 34 last week-
end on my A32.  One reef in the main, and a 110 with a luff of 75% was
just the ticket.  In the gusts, there was just a little too much main, but if it
was a sustained gust, playing mainsheet did okay.

There is a limit to how effective reducing foresail area by roller can be.  You
can't do anything meaningful with a 180.  By the time you've rolled in enough
to approach 130 or so, the sail shape is so bad you can point very high without
flogging the fool thing.  None of the alternatives are great:

1. Change the sail.  Okay if you have crew.

2. Add a stowable inner forestay for hank on small sails. (This is what I am
doing for my A32 - but it is pricey.

3.  By a sleeve for flying a storm jib.  ATN makes one called the Tacker.

4. Get a 'roller reefing' genoa.  Most sailmakers will only make these up to
about 135, beyond that, it doesn't really work.  This is also costly, but may
be the best all around solution.  If you know that wind is likely to stay light,
fly the 180, else the roller reefing 135.  If you like to sail in winder sorts
of weather, the this with the tacker for a storm jib may be the trick.

[hargadoo]

> 2. Add a stowable inner forestay for hank on small sails. (This is what I am
> doing for my A32 - but it is pricey.

I like this option you mentioned. How does one go about installing a stowable forestay? How does it work? What modifications do I need to make on the boat. I currently have a roller furling Harken so do I attach something to it?
When you're done with your mods, would it be possible to send me fotos? I'd like to copy what you did.

> 3.  By a sleeve for flying a storm jib.  ATN makes one called the Tacker.

I've contacted the ATN folks and I'm looking into this option, but I have to mail my storm jib to them and they'll make modifications.

[aloha27]

Well, it's certainly one thing to be out and caught in snot (then you have to deal with it...) but 25-35 knots is plenty aboard "Ever After". The absolute worst we've encountered on the Northumberland Strait was 41 knots apparent on the nose heading home from Charlottetown PEI a couple of years ago. They were calling for SW 20 and we headed for home. BIG mistake! By the time we were hit, it was 16 miles downwind back or 15 miles to windward home, we chose the latter. Double-reefed main and MAYBE a quarter of our 150% (Furlex roller furling) out and we rocketed along at 7 knots SOG, heeled between 15 and 20 degrees most of the way. Patti's fingerprints are still in the mainsheet I'm sure, as she had to break it more than a few times during gusts. As well we pinched to lessen heeling effect and de-power.

Our rule of thumb is 15 knots.. 150%.. full main
Over 20 knots... 135% and single reef main
Over 25 knots... 85% and double reef main
Over 30 knots... double reef main alone.

We don't head out when the winds are expected above 25 knots any more. That's how stuff gets broken and people killed.

Steve, Patti and Grace (Ship's Cat)
sv "Ever After"
A27 #39
Tatamagouche NS

[alohaoa]

Steve - your "It's better to be ashore wishing you were at sea, than at sea wishing you were ashore" tagline is particularly appropriate here!

Hargadoo - given that you say you are inexperienced in sailboats I would be very cautious heading out into these heavier winds until you gradually gain experience in handling your boat in a range of conditions. My experience in the Georgia Strait suggests that in some wind directions you can get sea conditions much worse than the wind strength leads one to expect.

Keith

[GCOLLINS]

Amen to that Keith!  Over 25 kts I won't go without some seriously experienced crew.  If it's just my wife and I (and the crazy 2 year old cabin boy) we often wimp out to just a reefed main - but we aren't trying to make time. 

One good thing about having the boat on a mooring is that it forces some reflection on the sanity of heading out - if I'm worried about the trip out to the boat...  then maybe not a good plan to sail that day.

Practice reefing and changing the sails when the weather isn't trying to kill you - that way you aren't trying to figure out stuff when your life depends on it.

 - Graham Collins
A27#37 Tardis

[musrum]

> 2. Add a stowable inner forestay for hank on small sails. (This is what I am
> doing for my A32 - but it is pricey.

I like this option you mentioned. How does one go about installing a stowable forestay? How does it work? What modifications do I need to make on the boat. I currently have a roller furling Harken so do I attach something to it?
When you're done with your mods, would it be possible to send me fotos? I'd like to copy what you did.

> 3.  By a sleeve for flying a storm jib.  ATN makes one called the Tacker.

I've contacted the ATN folks and I'm looking into this option, but I have to mail my storm jib to them and they'll make modifications.

About the inner forestay.  While it is possible to do this yourself, it may make more sense to have
a quality rigger do it for you.  That is what I am doing.

A stainless fitting is added to the mast some distance below the mast head.  This fitting provieds
the mounting point for the inner stay.  Depending on the placement of this fitting, running backstays
or other arrangement may be needed.  The plan for my boat is to have this fitting high enough so
backstays are not needed.

A stainless rod will run from the bow just above the bobstay chainplate up through the V-berth,
and up through the deck about midway between the anchor chainpipes and the forward hatch.
The top of the rod is fitted with one half or the lower forstay fitting.  The bottom end of the rod
goes through the leading edge of the bow, and through an exterior chainplate fabricated to fit
the bow.  From the outside it looks like a stainless plate wrapped around the bow, with a big
bolt sticking out.  There is a nut/crown nut arrangement for precise adjustment of the rod.

The upper end of the forestay is attached to the mast fitting in the normal way.  The lower end
has a nifty fitting that combines a turnbuckle sort of mechanism with a lever that locks the
stay to the fitting on the top of the rod.  With this setup, the stay is normally carried stowed -
that is, it is detached from the rod, and brought back alongside the forward shroud.  There is
a stainless channel mounted at the shrouds that sweeps through a large radius 90 degree
bend.  This channel carries the stay when stowed.  This allows for the normal use of the
genoa without fighting an inner stay.

When the stay is needed, it is unshipped from the channel at the shrouds, and carried forward
to the rod and fitting above the V-berth.  There, the lever arrangement allows attaching the
stay to the rod, and applying the correct tension in one operation - hook the stay onto the
rod, and swing the lever up to lock and tension.  There is a locking ring that holds the lever
in the locked position.

At the same time this work is being done, I am also having a flying sail crane added to the
mast head for flying an asymetric spinnaker.  The inner stay is costing me about $2400 US,
the crane plus fittings and line are about $350 US.  If I elect to lower the mast attach point,
then running backstays will add about $800 US.

The rigging shop I am using is considered one of the best.  They did new standing ringing and
a flying sail crane for my Cal 2-27, and they were more than professional.  This should all
happen early next spring.  The work on the boat is done in one day, with a follow up visit for
finish work a day or two later.

If I think of it, I will write it up, and send photos for the Projects Page.

[hargadoo]

Steve - your "It's better to be ashore wishing you were at sea, than at sea wishing you were ashore" tagline is particularly appropriate here!

Hargadoo - given that you say you are inexperienced in sailboats I would be very cautious heading out into these heavier winds until you gradually gain experience in handling your boat in a range of conditions. My experience in the Georgia Strait suggests that in some wind directions you can get sea conditions much worse than the wind strength leads one to expect.

Keith

Hehe. didn't know 25-35 knot winds aren't good for sailboats -- learned this one the hard way. Have been through a few scrapes when I was younger on my dad's 25 foot fishing boat in the middle of the pacific, and when I was much younger I had a few outrigger canoes that I'd use to jump from one island to another (this is in the phillipines which was a lifetime ago).  My dad always kept in the fishing boat a few items for last ditch effort when the seas are 30-50 feet and I try to equip any vessel I own with the same compliment of equipment (well, except the outrigger canoes cos they don't have much space):

-- 4 sea anchors, 2 of them daisy chained (and at least 600 feet of rope to go with it).
-- A life raft, self-inflating.
-- De-salinator.
-- Dye markers, floating smoke grenades.

The sea anchors are life-savers. My dad used them quite a lot, and back then I thought he was just being cheap on fuel when he'd use the sea anchors -- cos trying to motor in rough seas would make you use twice as much fuel. It was only later that I realized that sea anchors are the best life and boat saving equipment you can possibly have. Well, apart from just staying ashore of course

I gotta admit, sailing is quite a different experience from motor-boating. 

[alohaoa]

Hi,

I wasn't suggesting sailboats couldn't cope with those conditions - production sailboats of this size, and smaller, have sailed round the world, with all the conditions that entails. Similarly, although I might not deliberately set out into them, I'm quite happy in 35 knot winds and more in a 28ft (or 27ft) sailboat such as an Aloha provided it is well equipped for the conditions (by which I mean companionway washboards in place, suitable sails correctly set and reefed as appropriate, Mustang style life jacket with harness and lifeline for each crew member, all equipment and rigging well maintained, etc NOT neccesarily flares [although you are required to have these on board] or liferaft) and being sailed by an experienced and safety minded crew.

In your first post you indicated you didn't have much experience with sailboats, and I would recommend a cautious approach, and possibly a course such as those available from Coopers and others, before taking too many risks in heavier winds and seas.

Keith